Another blog post in the category “The incredible life of (non UK) EU citizens in the UK” (Part 1 here)
Imagine you are a Belgian citizen and you just turned 27. You move to the UK to do research at one of the leading universities. So far so good. Thanks to EU legislation, there are no problems getting your previous qualifications recognised. Although the UK is not member of Schengen it is enough to present a ID card at the border to enter the country. Obviously you do not need a visa or a passport. Anyway most of EU citizens just carry their ID cards with them, some do not even have passports and, anyway, we tend to store our passports at home in the cupboard in case we travel to weird destinations next summer. So what can possibly go wrong with living in the UK you might ask?
Well, although you are 27 you might look younger than 25 which can be a problem (although this is hard to imagine!) So on any given Wednesday you pop into your local Sainsbury’s to buy a bottle of wine. (For those of you who have been in the UK you might be aware of a small alcohol problem regarding under-age drinking…) Since the shop assistant thinks you look under 25 (in normal circumstances this is a compliment!) she asks for a proof of identity as the shop policy requires her to check everyone who looks under 25 whether he or she is over 18.
First, you might be a bit surprised as you did not expect this question. But, thanks to old habits you carry your Belgian ID card with you and present it to the shop assistant. After all it is one of the most advanced ID cards in Europe and does not look like a library card.
“Sorry we do not accept ID cards – only passports and British driving licenses” the shop assistant informs you. Your reply: “But in the alcohol department I saw a poster with all means of identification – including ID cards” (which is of course rather funny as there are no UK ID cards yet…) – “Sorry, no exceptions.” she answers. “I can show you the poster if you want?” But she clarifies ”We do not accept ID cards!” – “But this is my national ID card issued by the Belgian state and you can see here that I am 27 years old” – “Sorry, I cannot accept it!”
So, why do we have ID cards (ID is short for identity document!!) if this is still happening in the EU? Why is the ID accepted to enter the country, to open a UK bank account, to vote in local UK and European elections. Probably you can even open your own supermarket – but it is really not accepted to proof your age in a supermarket? Is it discrimination? Well, as the branch manager of Sainsbury’s explained later: “Discriminatory behavior would include different prizes for UK citizens and foreign citizens…but the supermarket can decide what kind of ID it accepts”
I am not convinced! And I would feel discriminated against. I think this is ridiculous and I wonder whether there is any EU/national legislation which could be used in this case…I still hope this was a decision of a couple of stubborn employees and not the official company policy….
And just to make it clear: This really happened (!), however, luckily there are other supermarkets and the evening eventually included a bottle of wine!
29 Comments
English shop assistants were/are famous for being unable to accept Scottish or Northern Irish sterling notes. They don’t even know they exist. I wouldn’t take it personally. Just take your money elsewhere next time.
I didn’t know that an ID card was enough to cross the Schengen line.
@Coleman
These new identity cards are pretty sophisticated, with security features absent in old passports.
@Kosmopolit
In principle, all discrimination on grounds of nationality is prohibited in the internal market, but easier than going to court would be to a) ask discriminating companies to place visible posters at the entrance of their discriminatory practices (to save people time), and b) for people to spread the word (as you have done), and c) for smart customers to shop elsewhere (as Coleman suggested).
@Sainsbury
Do you hear us?
@UK government and media
Why not educate your public, including businesses? Great for tourism etc.
Although the Lisbon Treaty means that the unelected bureaucrats in Brussels can make whatever rules they like, so far the member states of the EU can set their own internal ID rules. Except that if one member state declares a certain document to be valid ID for its citizens, every other state must also recognise that document. But this requirement is only mandated on the state, not on businesses. In effect, Sainsburys can set their own rules legally. As the manager pointed out, the only thing they cannot do is discriminate. This raises an interesting question. If the British ID card is successful (unlikely, but bear with me) then it is arguable that it would be discriminatory for them to accept UK ID cards, but not those of other countries.
There is a major problem here. It is tough for workers to know what valid locally issued ID looks like. Distinguishing, say, a valid Czech ID card from a fake, could be very challenging. An alternative would be to train staff to recognise under age people by looking at them, instead of their ID. (The state of Oregon requires all those serving alcohol to do this.) But then, when did a shop assistant last look at a customer in Sainsburys.
By the way, English shop assistants do not have to accept Scottish or Northern Irish notes because they are not legal tender in England and Wales. Bank of England notes are legal tender throughout the UK.
@ Simon Evans
European identity cards, including security features, are standardised. Makes it easier for workers and businesses – at least the smarter ones.
Sainsbury's does not accept ID cards!? – Kosmopolito: Well, although you are 27 you might look younger than.. http://bit.ly/6L6568
RT @kosmopolit Blogged about life in the #UK, #Sainsburys and #IDcards @kosmopolito http://ow.ly/LdEa
Fab piece by @kosmopolit about UK identity card stupidities http://tr.im/HN3i If it's any solace my NHS doctor didn't like my diving license
Sort of in reply to Bethany – would have been *very* funny if they thought Kosmopolit was under 18…
This also made me think of this story:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2009/oct/11/morrisons-wine-ban-mother
A mother was prevented from buying wine because her 17 year old daughter was shopping with her!
same thing happened to yet another Belgian friend of mine. Her ID was not accepted to get a Railcard … only passports! The stupid station manager has probably never been in continental Europe.
RT @kosmopolito: Sainsbury’s does not accept ID cards!? – Kosmopolito http://bit.ly/68YTXE ID insanities #idcards
The same happened to me in Ireland, in a TESCO! I’m Hungarian and they required my passport, which I, of course, did not have on me. They told me that it was due to a resolution of the Irish government. I then reminded them of the immediate applicability of the EU law, but it did not seem to have any effect. Since then I’ve been thinking about writing a letter to the customers’ rights commissioner but haven’t done it yet. But it’s good to know that I’m not alone with this problem.
well what can i say i am a fellow Belgian and i must say the ignorance is massive i got told yesterday that the Belgian ID is not part of the EU …!!!! Beat that so now were not part of the EU according to some Ignorant Manager in an office………. that was the highlight of my day… i accept that one has not seen an id but to state Belgium is not part of it they obviously are secluded and live in a box……………..
Hi there, i am a Sainsbury’s employee as a cashier and checkout supervisor. And no matter how much i hate working there, I’ve have never heard anything so crazy as this! Of course Sainsbury’s accepts ID Cards! As far as i know, we accept:
For UK residence: Citizen Card, Portmans’ Proof of age card, cards cards displayed on the The National Proof of Age Standards Scheme website, UK Drivers Licence and UK passports.
For non UK residence: Original Passport of the country you reside, Drivers licence and National ID of the country you reside in.
As long as the ID is Valid (within the valid from and valid to dates) and has not been tampered with in any way, it should be ok.
May i ask, did u ask to talk to a manger about this incident?
I don’t know whether my fried talked to the manager at this particular incident or whether he was so shocked that he just left the shop.
And I know this is not the official Sainsbury’s policy which would indeed be a scandal. But the problem seems to exist as some of the other comments revealed. And this is not a Sainsbury’s problem as it happens in other shops as well. The question is why that happens. Is it because the employees are not properly trained or because they fear harsh consequences if they make a mistake? Or is it something else?
The consequences are quite harsh, if anyone is caught selling age restricted products (alcohol, knives, games, dvd’s) to anyone under the required age, you have the risk of an 1) on-the-spot fine, 2) disciplinary action possibly leading to dismissal 3) criminal record. The licence holder (one of the managers in the store) may also face the same/similar consequences as he is also kept responsible along with the staff who made the illegal sale. So yes, there is a lot of pressure, and most people don’t want to get close to risking it so they become really hesitant on deciding what to accept.
hi i have just got my provisional driving license because my passport went out of date 3 years ago and places have started not to accept it im just wondering is my provisional classed as valid id to purchase alcohol and such
thanks
Quit getting upset. I’m a Sainsburys employee. It’s company policy. Contact head office they write the rules they will say the same thing.
If it bothers you that much there are other supermarkets. This annoys us as much as it annoys you. Stop trying to debate with everyone and accept that ANY store can legally refuse anyone.
This policy has been company policy for quite a while and isn’t made up by the evil dumb cashier who is serving you.
http://www2.sainsburys.co.uk/YourIdeas/forums/13930/ShowThread.aspx#13930
OA, I’m not sure you are a sainsburys employee at all!
I have also had a problem with ID at the Sainsburys in Oxford City Centre (Westgate). I have been using my New Zealand Drivers Licence as ID to buy alcohol since I entered the UK nearly 2 years ago. Last weekend all of a sudden it was not valid ID at this particular store. The check out staff was really rude including bitching (there is no better word) with thier check out supervisor about someone who had given the ‘stick’ about this policy last week. They would not even answer me when I asked when the policy had changed. I finally got the answer ‘about 2 weeks ago’. I left and went to M & S down the road where they didn’t even ask for ID. Is there not a standard rule throughout the UK for what ID is accepted? I can’t find anything on the internet that will tell me. I am not carrying my passport around in case I would like to borrow a bottle of wine as I ahve already had the Home Office hold onto it for 1 year (whilst sitting on my residence card application) and had Royal Mail loose it when they were on strike. Can anyone tell me exactly what the Government says about what ID is acceptable?
Sorry by borrow I mean buy! Freudian slip!
I also had the same problem in Ireland with my Spanish ID.
I have just experienced the same humiliation in Morrisons in Bradford ( http://www.morrisons.co.uk ).
My trolley contained about £50-£60 worth of foods as well as a bottle of wine which I wanted to use for cooking.
I am used to be checked for IDs, I’m in the UK since a long time now and never had any problem when I shown my French ID card even though I’m nearly 30.
No to say that this afternoon it was one of this day where the cashier ask for my ID and when presented with all my IDs (French driving licence & National ID & even a UK credit card which can not be obtained under 18). They have all been refused on the ground that they are non British IDs. I’ve asked to speak with the manager and the manager was even more unpleasant than the cashier!
The whole ‘procedure’ was scandalous and you feel like being treated as criminals because of your Nationality. Sure shops can not tell if the ID is a fake or not but for crying out loud we are not crossing any borders and clearly our IDs does not look cheap fakes especially when you show two of them.
Morrisons, and CO., let me tell you this is unacceptable we are customers and be treated as such.
The point to ask for the ID when you buy alcohol in UK is to check your age and picture our ID fit this purpose. I have seen 20 years old kids showing a ‘bus photo ID’ without any problem in the same shops, and to me this tend to be a discrimination.
My stew and all the others to come will be cooked with a bottle of beer bought at the local pub or from my local wine shop…
This happened to me aswell. I am german, nearly 2 meters tall, have a full beard and on top of that… I am actually 28 years old.
Tried buying cigarettes, showed my drivers licence (rejected), visa card (rejected) and demanded to talk to the manager without success.
Surely this must fall under discrimination, as the poster outside clearly says… A valid photo ID.
I even tried explaining that I can cross borders with my licence, but that apparently didn’t make sense. Showed my uni card, which was issued many many years ago (british), but also without success.
The funny thing is, that I have been shopping at that coop for more than a year now and most of the employees have seen me atleast a dozen times.
I can understand that it’s important to check for things like that, but this just reached a new level and I without doubt feel discriminated!
I demand retribution!
Hi,
I believe that it is not the biggest problem if you cannot buy alcohol, because STUPID British employees keep ignoring that the EEA id cards are as good as passports in the EEA.
I am a Hungarian citiizen, living in the UK for 5 years, I have a valid Hungarian national ID card an expired passport and a valid Registration certificate (also knowns as blue card that’s purpose is to confirm my right to work in the UK).
However, basically ALL UK employers state that they only accept passports, however THEY MUST NOT SAY THAT!!!!!!!!! As the EEA id cards are as good as passports in the EEA, whenever a passport is asked for, the EEA national ID card MUST BE ACCPETED as a passport.
To be clear: throughout the European Economic Area, an EEA country issued national ID card IS a passport.
Same thing happened to me, today! Me and the husband wanted to buy a bottle of alcohol at Waitrose! I’m 25, the husband 28! For the first time, in two years, all of our forms of ID were denied. We are both Portuguese, and we had both our driving licenses as well as our national id cards. After asking to talk to the manager, he showed the list of documents accepted:
1. ENGLISH age card
2. ENGLISH passport
3. Any card with the “pass logo” (which, as Portuguese, we do not have).
I was embarrassed and humiliated… Even the lady standing on the queue, just behind us, said that what they were doing was outrageous…
You just need to make it clear to management – not the employee involved, who either feels like a turd for having to enforce the rule, or is a turd for enjoying enforcing the rule – that it’s cost them the business of you, your foreign tourist friends, and your professional acquaintances, for the indefinite future (i.e. until they go out of its way to do something positive about it and let you know).
If someone is too dense to be trained to recognize valid ID, they’re too dense to be handling money or alcohol, so they can and should be trained in what ID is legitimate. As has been pointed out, EU ID’s are standardized and easy to recognize.
RT @kosmopolit: A scandal if correct: #Sainsbury can refuse EU ID cards because they only have to accept the "PASS logo" http://ow.ly/2iTiL (last comment)
Several months since my last attempt to buy alcohol at the above mentioned Sainsburies I decided to give it another shot -this time they accepted my NZ Drivers Licence without batting an eyelash. I guess it’s different rules depending on who you end up with at the till! I still haven’t received an acknowledgment of my complaint 5 months on and to make things even more hilarious – now that I am pregnant and have a ‘baby belly’ I can buy alcohol from that same store without ever being asked for ID (not for myself obviously). Isn’t it a funny world we live in.
Generally when you come to an EU country, the people who let you enter have seen I.D cards from most nationalities and therefore know a real one from a fake. Usually when entering a Country for a long period of time your passport and reason why should be stated. Due to the high rise in people trying to purchase alcohol under the age of 18 companies such as Adsa, Sainsbury’s and Tesco are taking a wider approach to the identity cards they take. Personally if I have never seen this I.D card I won’t take it on the chances it might not be genuine. Near where I live my local supermarket only allow UK drivers licence and UK passports to be used for Identification. You can purchase a Citizenship card which is also acceptable as it has a pass-logo on.
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